I think the good old CoX recipe was fine (debt).

I agree with you Zee, exp debt is an easy to implement solution that impacts everyone equally and in my opinion the best way to go if exp penalty is a must. I was just looking for other possibilities.

I would introduce a new system called "Emergency Device"

Players can trade, sell, buy (in the shop) and win these devices during missions or PVP.
If a player gets defeated he can use an Emergency Device to stand up and continue the fight. If he has no Emergency device he must rely on other players (healers for example) to revive him.
If nobody helps the player and he has no Emergency Device, he is forced to use the "retreat" button. In this case the player will be transported (respawned) to the San Cielo Hospital which is definately a high enough penalty. You could use 3 or 4 of these respawn spots so that the hospital will not be overloaded with respawning players.

Emergency Devices:
- should stack to 10 per slot in the inventary
- should have a maximum like 30, 40 or 50 (or according to the level of the players character e.g. level 20 character can carry 20 Devices)
- should be available in game in different shops and at NPCs
- should be usable to other players (so you can revive your friends or even other players)

With this system you pass the responsibility to the players. If one doesn´t care he will wake up in the hospital every time he "dies".
If a group of players are planning to do a high level dungeon they have to be prepared. Especially if the group has no healer. Everyone should take care to carry enough Emergency Devices before starting a mission.

Alternatively you can make the amount of carrying such devices a skill that can be leveled up.

I think this would be something new.

Gerald Deemer wrote:
How about having different themes for the emergency device, such as adrenaline stims, magic artifacts, or extra power cells, and make them craftable?

ZeeHero wrote:
Also an option. Cyborgs use other "Emergency Devices" than organic lifeforms, right?

Maybe the craftable ones only work with some classes and the common can be used for everyone but are not too effective.

I was thinking a cyborg, robot, or power armored character would use a Power Cell to jump start their reactor, a Mutant or natural human would use an adrenaline stim, while a magic caster would recharge with an artifact.

ZeeHero wrote:
But a cyborg should be able to carry an artefact for example, to be able to heal his "magic" friends.

I agree with what is being said here.
If you want to use PVP for "Perma-death" than so be it, but I am not interested in it at all.

Agreed!!!!

As a general rule of thumb bonus-to-the-usual item degrading is kind of lame.

What happened to the "talk with your shrink" scenario posted few days ago? That made me assume you had something more meaty than the usual "bam, you are dead, try again" in mind.

Hey, here is the idea. When a char goes down she/he does not get a direct penalty immediately but collects "penalty points" (better name of course). These are going at the psyche; the self confidence of the character. At the beginning they wont do anything. And they even will recover over time (long time). But if the characters bar is full she/he have a breakdown of some sort; maybe even gets all Supershock (if highlevel, if low level its rather Mr. Furious ) on her/his surroundings. A timely visit to a shrink depletes the bar. Maybe a good (expensive) one faster then a cheap one.

The mechanics behind this could of course be used for other interesting game scenarios. But item degrade & XP penalty... whats interesting with that?

Edit:
Permadeath? Whomever wants Permadeath should be completely free to delete their char after death.

Anothername wrote:

these ideas would pretty much screw over raiding or pvp, where, by definition there are one shot attacks and guaranteed deaths. COH debt was plenty of penalty, I play in games with repairs etc and pugs are still bad. The only thing that penalties like that do is make groups disintegrate after the first or second death. Blame fights, kick people. The mechanic also ensures that no group starts without dedicated heals, which is against everything COH taught us. I dont want to see tfs fail to even start because we can find heals

Actually in the infamous World of Warcraft and in Final Fantasy XIV online, instant deaths are used quite sparingly even in raid content. this is part of good design becuase of all the mechanics which CAN kill you, none of them WILL by themselves. there's room for the player to make a small mistake or two here or there, but continuing to screw up will kill you or wipe the team.

ivanhedgehog wrote:
Besides that we have absolutely no idea how raids would look like it would not matter. Even without any artificial penalty ppl throw a fit and leave/kick just because of real time lost and nobody respects their authoritah!!! Also it does not matter because if all have to go to the next blacksmith to rep their stuff or the next shrink to prevent mental breakdown means mechanically the same "gone to fix stuff after X amount of wipes".

What it can do on the other hand to help raids is having a char gone mental still being playable. Just... maybe stay away from the not so friendly fire anymore AOE or having a "heal-heal-whine about futility of life-heal" rotation

And if you still against it: Don't die!

I hope the game manages to capture the Superhero feeling enough that Raid or bust ain't the defining endgame. Some might just wanna get better at non combat professions. I heard shrinks are in high demand; looks like a good job to pass time

Just remember it's a super hero MMO not a survival game. Mechanics like having to visit a shrink to prevent mental breakdown are things which fit in a survival game not a super hero MMO with a wide variety of character concepts. some of which are even robotic and have full control of their own neural networks.

ZeeHero wrote:
They need a defrag & a firewall update instead

The point is such a mechanic would only be an annoyance and be largely viewed as an impediment to RP and fun by many players. I think if there's going to have to be a death penalty, a limited amount of XP debt, say capped at 25-35% would be fine.

The therapists could serve to reduce your XP debt cap for a time.

Let me clarify my first response.

The hardcore, perma-death, respawn interception ideas are just idea that I would consider if I were making my own game. I don't necessarily believe these ideas are good for Valiance. Valiance is probably trying to get a big chunk of 'mainstream' players (whatever that means) to have a substantial player base. If I were designing a game, I wouldn't aim for mainstream, I would be aiming for more hardcore players. That is why none of my games have ever been released!

As far as a more mainstream game that I think Valiance could take some pointer from is Neverwinter. For those unfamiliar, if you die, you get a random injury. Chest injury = less HP, arm injury = less attack, leg injury = slower movement, etc. But there are medical kits that you can loot and also buy with in game currency to heal these injuries. If you die with an injury, the dice is rolled again and you get an injury to another body part or the severity of an existing injury is increased. The injuries fade over time. This rewards planning ahead and having the right tools for the job. It is not a severe penalty either. It adds a cost to death but is totally manageable. It does help keep players from attempting things that are above their level.

This is actually closer to a mixture of Neverwinter and Star Trek Online injury systems.

Neverwinter randomly gives injuries every time you trigger a dungeon trap (theyre all over the place) and is a huge annoyance.

I would add that it would probably be wise to allow the injuries to be removed for free in the hospital. STO does this for medbays in hub areas.

ZeeHero wrote:
think about hami raids and they would have failed miserably if people had to escape from a nonsensical "prison". XP debt was fine, this other stuff will just push people away. Some people play the game and learn, some could play that character for a decade and never learn to play the way other people want them to. Thats fine, let people have fun rather than pushing a punishing death system on them.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, the therapists should just reduce the xp debt you incur, instead of being required to not literally go insane lol.