Pyrion wrote:
That

The reputation slider in CoH was indeed a welcome addition. Another interesting approach was the early "massive single player game" Daggerfall, where you could set options at character creation that allowed you to pick more (or fewer) abilities and more (or less) HP per level, and the game adjusted the XP accordingly, from one third to three times the normal rate. I'd love to have that for a tank, even if it meant the rest of the team outleveled me at the end of the day. (I was one of the few who actually used the Level Pact while it lasted, meaning I leveled half as fast as my teammates if Tuva was not on. I actually liked that pace better, but of course there are others who are desperate to reach max level in one day even if it means the risk of being banned. People vary, but they tend to be the same from day to day.)

The most important element besides of course the world, physics powers and such is something that you as the DEV are already adding to some degree and that is Player Created Content. By far my favorite element in COH and games like Skyrim and Fallout is the player created content such as quests, npcs and enemy group. Not only do I love creating my own unique storylines and npcs (groups) but I love playing things that other players create just like all the amazing mods that fans have created for the above mentioned games.

badfellas wrote:
Reminds me that I spend more (in some cases only) time in my mains painstakingly decorated home and patting my own shoulder instead of doing anything heroic at all in DCUO (Superpower: digital FengShui ).

This is EVERYTHING to me:

I love Superhero MMOs. The one that nailed it was City of Heroes. DCUO and Champions Online are pale examples by comparison. And the main reason why was this: In City of Heroes, I was able to feel powerful beyond belief.

I didn't have to mouse-aim or face my charatcer towards the target, I could just tab-select a target and fire an ability and my character would spin and fire. By judicious design choices, you could make your character nigh-unhittable WITHOUT having to dance out of some mark on the floor - purchasing a high DEF was sufficient.

My CoH character was generally NOT limited by my video game abilities or lack thereof. The secret to power in City was in making smart build choices - but even if you made ordinary build choices, you were still pretty unstoppable!

These days, when you freeze a baddie in most MMOs they stay frozen for 2-5 seconds, and you cannot refreeze them for another 30-60 seconds. In city effects could easily be made to last from 30 second to minutes, AND the recharges would often come back so fast that you could KEEP enemies frozen for the duration! On my Dominators I was able to achieve Perma-Dom, meaning that my control abilities would even lock down bosses with impunity!

CoH's innate design made us feel POWERFUL. A single character halfway through the journey to the level cap could take on 3-6 minions, 2 lieutenants, and a boss - and kick their BUTT, with little to no risk of failure or death!

And all the while, the power effects and sounds were a spectacle to behold! A full team of 8 going on a mission was a riot of color and sonic fury!

We were SUPER. Give us that feeling again - make us feel TRULY godlike.

Sorry but having to dance out of marks on the floor is one of the ways developers make combat even remotely engaging. You might not have to do it for -every- enemy but you'd better bet you'll have to deal with a lot of it when fighting boss enemies. otherwise no matter how powerful you are, the game is boring.

I like feeling powerful but I also am looking to have fun. automatically winning is not fun.

The people who enjoyed CoH would beg to differ with you about what is fun.

I highly doubt most of them would. this is something universal to almost every game. Don't get me wrong, I think you should feel very powerful, but being so powerful you always win regardless of what you do is boring.

Sindyr, Sounds like you enjoyed pre-ED and pre-triangles where everyone only took super reflexes, or such and such only x or y and only slotted for damage, endurance reduction, and perma-hasten with max recharge in hasten days. Yes in those days CC lasted a long time and you could become a god with max defense and never ever take any damage with no effort. But Zee is kind of right on that auto winning in 'everything' isn't actually fun in the long run. At first it is, but eventually the power trip turns into boredom and even discourages experimenting with things.

But, I often hear of numerous reasons post-ED was far better than pre-ED. In fact the resident expert of CoH in the titan forums who had the best min/max builds and also knew AE inside and out Arcana flat out says you could be far more powerful post-ED than Pre-ED but you had to earn it. And merely picking the best primary/secondary for the archtype and maxing on SO's/hami'Os wasn't the be-all-end-all anymore either.

Firstly, crowd control didn't go from 30 seconds to full minutes, more like 12 seconds to around 30-ish depending on level and most CC had long periods of cooldown. Only in like the very early days of the game if i recall could people basically fight nothing but statues. Post-ED cc was strategic and made you make decisions.

Likewise bosses(I'm talking archvillains and elite boss ranks) in CoH got a patch to make them only effected by CC periodicly specifically so people couldn't just walk over them, they had to feel like a real boss.

Secondly mobs had debuffs. People had to deal with them and learn which mobs were applying them. The game made "active defense" very important; taking something out or controlling it so it couldn't apply those debuffs or cc of it's own was critical in post-issue 6 gameplay. So again, lots of decisions and looking for enemies which could ruin your day.


CoH when I came to it in issue 8 was significantly different but more challenging than what I'd heard of the pre-Issue 6 days of perma holds and soft-cap defense with zero effort or support from anyone. But I am sure I wouldn't have liked Pre-ED. Because I disliked CO for the same problems of zero strategy or thought and just walking over 'everything' in the game. But CoH wasn't brutal either, in fact it was still pretty easy at start and some mob groups were cake-walks to deal with.


So what would I label CoH at as a game? Difficulty wise I felt as I played it, that it was challenging; hard but in ways which were subtle and technical. Again enemies could debuff you into oblivion and CC you, but once you learned which ones could to what you could neutralize them quickly enough. People who were willing to learn how to fight say Malta were rewarded both in experience, lore, and a satisfaction of defeating such a difficult group which made many people who I felt were pre-ed only types(that 10% I felt who went to CO) never actually got to experience.

City of heroes post-ED was a game you had to learn the quirks of the mobs, and the quirks of the powerset you used as well as how they could be used against you by the mobs you were fighting. Every set combination for the most part was a learning experience. Team play was very important to take advantage of things like buffs and better combinations of effects ect. Player skill mattered with things like positioning or making smart choices where to place a power to maximize the number of mobs debuffed/cc, or place them such the team can take them out quickest. Post-ED was a challenge based game. Pre-ED was, well sometimes I wonder if CO(well, CO before the total decline)was comparable. Those of us who learned CoH post-ED knew a game which had tons of replayability, because it had a level of difficulty and we had to earn our victories more.

It was still a game that was easy to get into, just you had to learn how to play if you wanted to do really well at higher levels.

I am one of those who think City of Heroes was at or near its height when it was backstabbed. But the game lost a lot of people to the Enhancement Diversification nerf, and as far as I know never got anything near the same numbers again. At that time the novelty seekers had already left, the ones who have to try out every new game, and also the ones who think you can "win" a MMORPG by getting to the max level. ED was a massive nerf surrounded by lesser nerfs before an after it, as part of "Statesman"'s new vision, which may or may not have been related to him jumping to another game a bit later. Be that as it may, there was a storm of protests followed by a great number of players leaving the game, never to come back. And the argument was exactly that they no longer felt heroic. So there probably is a market for people who want the game to be a bit on the easy side. Whether VO should be that game is entirely a different matter. I rather enjoyed CoH after invention fixed the problems from ED, but not by magically putting things back the way they were. Instead, players had to gather (or buy) the recipes and salvage for creating the enhancements that could make them more powerful than ever before. It was a project that could take a long time. And yes, there was also the part about learning to use your powers correctly against different enemies and when teaming with different allies. It was at its height a bit of a strategy and patience game rather than the twitch games you see coming out today. As such it appealed to more mature players with a calmer attitude, contributing to the spectacularly friendly player base. All things are connected. But I believe that if ED had happened simultaneously with the introduction of crafting, the game would have retained a larger player base and possibly lived longer, although it is unclear whether economy played any role in its termination.

Itlandm wrote:
Reminds me of what I read on occasion of Star Wars Galaxy. The NGE came, playerbase exodus followed and regardless of how good, some said even better than ever before, it became after some serious patching in the months that followed; at that point its back was broken; the players gone and sworn to never come back. People do not like big changes. They like what they know. So devs if you read this far (and other MMO devs whom for whatever reason stumble in around here): Stick to your guns! MMOs are about changing and evolving but do it slowly, give the people time to adapt in small steps. Telling them "All you knew and learned in your 5y playing that game is crap now" regardless how sugarcoated backfires.

Exceptions are apparently the latest Final Fantasy MMO; but they had the problem to suck so much to begin with that the devs could not loose here by overhauling it.

Well lets think about it this way: I would design around post-ED like gameplay from the start rather than pre-ED, because again as I heard people really didn't ever bother experimenting with anything in pre-ED CoH. I'd really like to have things like enhancements comparable to IO's and whatnot and have to earn being powerful through both good power choice, enhancement and about 60% player skill. What caused me to get bored of CO was it was literally more like 99% build and only like 1% execution, besides just a lack of new content. And course nerfs to anything which was popular without actually addressing some of the core issues of the game.

I know a lot of people hated post-ED and there are a lot of what I call "Munchkins"(players who literally only care about power power ad infinitum)out there, but i think the quickest way to end up with a dying game thats boring is appealing to those players lust for quick and easy power. Post-ED was just right in that, it took time to get to the really high end power levels and course later down the line the difficulty could be adjusted for the player to still feel challenged if he had to do so. Not to mention incarnate powers later.

Both Invention IO's and Incarnate powers were a result of ED and ED was essential for the two.

I do agree though CoH was at it's height in issue 23 going into 24 when NCSoft decided to pull the plug on it.

i played pre ED and it was still fun, even at the end of ED you where still invulnerable as a dark stone brute, the issue was keeping agro because they put in a 16 at a time cap but you could pull a entire level nps. it was quite fun but it had trade offs you could basicly only move by teleporting and did little damage(forcing forward planign and anticipation), stone ice tanks where also nice.

but i digress, combat needs to be challenging for a proper endorphin rush without the work/buildup its a piddly rush which is why people get "bored". repetition isnt bad if its challenging/giving you your rush, thats what you want its when it becomes 2 easy and you stop getting a rush or its 2 hard to ever get rush or 2 intermittent successes/reward/endorphin's to hold attention.

humans are basically computers thats why all pokies share similar aspects bells whistles flashing lights extra.

get your challenge rating variable/customisable enough and make the content engaging(make it require timing, forward thinking/planing/anticipation and sufficient flashing lights with a acceptable reward ratio) and people will play till that balance breaks

o and dont artificially shrink community by gating people/segregating them into groups, not that ive seen any suggestion they will go down that path

it wasnt the nerfs most other people griped about that made me leave CoH it was having to grind for gear i moved there in season 6 because enhancements just dropped no grinding for this or that in this mission unlike wow which id come from. but then they added more and more grinding for gear... i had way to many chars to pick which one to grind on so i moved on.
same thing happened in CO STO and NW each in turn .i dont get much satisfaction out of gear in a game i play for the combat and the community and the outfits.
having to refine salvage extra just disadvantages people that play multiple chars in every game ive ever played unless they are a pile of bots/alts feeding a main which is just having a single char that owns a mule train rather then having multiple chars pre unique origin IO's was my favorite part of CoH.

Archanarchist wrote:
It wasn't that severe though. At first the economy was pretty difficult to use, but over time people learned where to look for X or Y salvage. As content became more approachable(with Oroboros for example allowing a player to play level 26-39 content) getting salvage was easier, as well as recipies once people learned how to do that. The other thing about IO's though was that they didn't "age" like SO's did, once you had them you had them forever. Single-Origin enhancements had to be replaced every 5 levels or you became gimped and gearless as you leveled up.

I eventually got about 10 or so characters maxed out in IO's, and I didn't feel the need to go for purple recipies later introduced on all of them(in fact only 1 character had those, I felt purple recipies were "awesome but impractical", especially as they gave no defense or over-focused on recharge). Even then I also didn't rely on the much on a number of characters, I found some set combinations which were powerful without IO sets(and a fair number where "Frankenslotting" was more efficient). When Incarnate powers came out, my priorities actually shifted towards getting incarnate abilities first, even, and incarnate powers were actually earned more quickly than IO's.

And even then, IO's weren't 'that' necessary, it was smart play ultimately and being willing to use the force multipliers you got. Only brutes/scrappers really depended on IO's in solo play to up the difficulty to a high setting. It was a will to know what inspirations to bring for a difficult fight and what powers to activate, when to save longer cooldown powers for a tougher moment ect. CoH was more strategic and tactical then some games, basically. Winning against tough mobs was earned to.

On another point(or more focusing on something I said a bit earlier in more depth):

I mean I guess I should have mentioned earlier: I liked fighting groups like Malta Operatives and Knives of Artemis, or Carnival of Shadows and late-game arachnos, groups many more casual players hated to fight. Because they posed a threat, a challenge. The tricks they had could easily ruin your day and destroy you on any difficulty setting higher then even level 3-4x. The tricks weren't just there to deley the inevitable "I already won" that CO tends to reinforce. In CoH if you got held, you were likely gonna lose(especially if you brought no breakfrees). In CoH if a malta sapper hit you on characters you were gonna have to retreat or lose(and likely lose from not being able to do so). In CoH a fortunata mistress and varient could debuff your defense, and defense-cascade some characters. All the same though once you know those characters being capable of doing so, you'd often counter them and stop them from doing it in the first place.

And these were common enemies so you had to stay on your toes. I liked that, I felt more super and more awesome and badass as a hero/villain when I started succeeding regularly against those groups. That these enemies all had nasty debilitating groups made to ruin my fortunata's day, or my time manipulators, or my scrappers day and I was regularly kicking their butts.

I couldn't say the same of CO's mobs gimmicks. I saw people say they quit over Argent having a sapper like enemy, I merely stated "Dude, you can get your energy back super fast and still slaughter him before he does anything more". Everything in CO felt like it wasn't there to really be a threat, just slow you down and deley the inevitable: "I'm the hero so I automatically win". Which well, it got boring to me. I was used to being presented with a challenge in CoH, and didn't find that in CO at all.

People quit over CO's mob designs becuase overall they're very poorly done and not fun at all. Constant knock spam and stun lock and power usage denial is -NOT- good design. those mechanics are to be used in moderation.

I play FFXIV and mobs there can be quite challenging at times, even though they don't have access to absurd amounts of crowd control. Why? Becuase they can do very high damage if you don't dodge their aoe telegraphs or pay attention to their cast bars, and when theres a lot of them ganging up on you it becomes a fun dance to fight them.

In fact, 75% of the time in that game crowd control effects can be completely avoided by not being in the bad zone when it goes off. People still wipe hard on raids.

it was those purple ones i was talking about with the set bonuses that made me look for greener pastures i liked the collecting salvage and making your IO's part just not when they made them really hard to get materials "awesome but impractical" to have on more then one char. once people started wanting you to have them to do the rouge isles raid content extra. it was a combination of gear and player self imposed gating and yeah i used to like fighting malta MCPD and rikti and aracnoss, carni where a little annoying with their death power drains but they made it interesting/ fun, i still liked tearing through a room full of freakshow also though they had a lot of character in the different factions was part of the games charm made it fun to fight basically anything, even mooks

Archanarchist wrote:
I never had that problem where I was on virtue. I saw small "catch 22 gating" with incarnate content but the players who tried to do that tbh were those I felt had sucked at CoH to begin with. It never actually stopped me from getting incarnate powers(in fact I had more chars with maxed incarnate powers than maxed-IOs).

Anyone who demanded everyone have purple IO's? They weren't even the best necessarily, many real min/maxers went for +defense on the IO's. Purple IO's were kind of worthless to me because they were only good for a hardcore recharge build, and even then more recharge wasn't necessarily a good thing in CoH, you had to factor in endurance afterall and even with incarnate powers you didn't wanna necessarily have to take cardiac(endurance, which means tossing musculature and superior damage from interface and judgement) or ageless(which while powerful meant forgoing barrier or clarion).

I'd say people demanding specific equipment bonuses.....were terrible players in same light that people who demanded defenders do nothing but heal were. Not good at their own characters, so they demanded everyone else take up the slack.

ZeeHero wrote:
In CoH generally breakfrees were the bare-minimum crowd control inspiration people had to prevent all forms of crowd control/knockback. All melee archtypes came built in with anti-CC that appeared around the time CC became more common(around level 15-20, when healing fell behind).

CC in CoH was very common in the mid-levels and beyond BUT they were counterable and expected to be so, and again the enemies who could use them often stuck out in some way. A malta sapper had a big energy backpack on him. Arachnos widows were all female(the mobs anyways). Mu were guys wrapped head-toe in red linen. Tarantula queens had exposed creepy fleshy heads to make them stand out. In a way most mobs capable of CC/debuffs were telegraphed so even if you were moving somewhat quickly you could still see them before engaging.

CC and debuffs mobs had were 'very' frequent but again, wholly stoppable. People who didn't do anything to stop it weren't paying any attention in it. They really weren't. In fact the worst teams in CoH weren't just taking mobs that were to high a level with to few buffs, they also often ignored the mobs with buffs/debuffs and cc. They targetted very randomly(in fact I'd even say this is a case where tab-targetting deserved ridicule, many players praise that feature but your letting the game target for you). So when they came across a mob with say AoE stuns(malta or knives of artemis), they'd waist firepower and crowd control on the minions and get hit with AoE CC from a stun grenade and then complain and cry about it. Or they even treated the mobs like exp bags meant to be destroyed and ignored what the team also had(with members to lone-wolf even)

When in reality a few breakfrees could stop it, or some better coordination and targetting the mobs capable of CC quickly, or using confusion/holds/stuns to shut down the threat(in fact confused mobs with CC were the best things in CoH; they threw the stuns at the rest of the mob effectively cc'ing for you). It was more about actively countering it regularly such you'd get used to dealing with them and get a satisfaction out of it.

it depended on char like if you had a empathy-illusionist defender they would want your phantoms perma extra after a bit. if it was a tank then they would expect you to have defense and resist hard caped (and also apocalypse or something set i forget all their names now). i played mostly on freedom a little on guardian and virtue but didn't have max level chars on virtue or do much raiding on guardian. some chars you'd still get in like a Kinetic corrupter or defender or even a radiation-dark corrupter but it became progressively more difficult to talk you way through door without purples on non "essential" power sets
(and i do agree in a lot of cases purple wasn't necessarily the hands down best option with invented origin boost %'s but people used that as a gating method once it was a option to use)

but we are getting off topic of: what is the one most important thing in a video game to you?

(for me as I've stated earlier its combat quality)