Hi, so, I'm looking for a new MMO to ingrain myself in.

I've quit DCUO, Marvel Heroes, Champions Online, and have quit other games before I even started because of exclusive items.
Just today I have resolved not to join Black Desert Online and Blade and Soul, because Black Desert Online had preorder items,
and Blade and Soul had a "Founders pack"

Those who support the game should be rewarded, yes, but items that are only available once and then never again
are a punishment for anyone who joins later.

Not to mention the completionists of the world will breathe a sigh of relief to see them gone.

As someone who played COH I have been following both this and City of Titans with interest-
but depending on how you choose to deal with exclusionists, I may either be a lifelong supporter or you may never hear from me again.

If you do offer exclusive costumes or items or other features to those who pay money to support the game,
I'll have no problem.

If it's a "buy now, or you'll never get it" sort of deal, I just can't stay.

I don't understand the dichotomy here, so I will just ask...

It is ok for people to pay and have exclusive content that other people who don't pay for that content don't have access to.
"If you do offer exclusive costumes or items or other features to those who pay money to support the game, I'll have no problem."

It is *not* ok for people that paid money starting around 2 years ago, and probably still are, to be given content that others don't have access to?
"If it's a 'buy now, or you'll never get it' sort of deal, I just can't stay."

To me, what I am reading is:
It sounds like you are saying that once the game is released (as in post-Beta), then it is ok to create special packages that people can buy on top of a regular sub. Packages that otherwise you do not get within the game (unless you pay extra for it).
However, if any packages are created before the game launches (as in during or pre-Beta release) then it is *not* ok to buy or offer those? How is this different? Timing?

Thanks,
Hap

People that are investing now and those who have invested as founders will have exclusive stuff that nobody will ever have.

That is our show of respect to them for their early commitment. It won't be a massive selection, but they'll have a few early investor costume pieces.

It is important to note that all of these investor rewards will be cosmetic and not give an advantage in-game in terms of gameplay.

Haplo wrote: I'm pretty sure it's about truly exclusive content. That is content that is only available during a set time period and after that never more, and having it created/done before or after official launch has nothing to do with it. This is most often done with pre-order bonuses or founders packs so that was the examples used.

As for having some content be pay-for, well they have to generate revenue some how.

Nothing wrong with exclusive items as long as they don't offer a huge advantage to player or imbalance the game. If you take the risk and back a project, no reason not to be rewarded for it.

The other thing to keep in mind is you don't have to say "You'll never ever get this" You can also have timed exclusivity that allows people to go around with the item.

They could even offer special materials for a item like sparkling gold material for all costume pieces only available to early backs and maybe to Vets via a vet reward system after X amount of time spent paying a sub or X amount spent in the game shop.

I'm really eager to see how the cash shop works and various funding ideas post launch just because those plans will have an affect on early development and what we see and access in Beta.

I understand that, nearly all games do it nowadays (sadly) and I just think that it's kind of unfortunate.

Players who back a new game during a critical time should be rewarded,
but does it have to be exclusive items?

Why not just "early access" to certain items, or free bonuses or even extreme discounts?

Anything that is only available once is a regret for anyone who joins later on or simply can't participate.
Even cosmetic items that don't affect combat are important for a player's overall enjoyment of the game.

Powerhelm wrote:
Timed exclusivity is okay. Exclusivity that ends, is okay.

However, the items that are simply available once and then never again-
such is what I take issue with.

I am not saying "you'll never ever get this"
they are.

They, being those who use exclusivity as a market strategy.
Which means pretty much everyone.

Things that require paying time, money and effort to obtain = Yes.
Things that require building an actual time machine in real life to get = No.

blacke4dawn wrote:
Thank you for clarifying it for me Black Dawn.

You wouldn't happen to be THE Black Dawn, would you?
The one I'm thinking of...from you know where, assuming you are who I think you are?

The problem I see with all of this is, the 'fairness doctrine'. All of this is only my opinion and that's all it is. Opinion.

Also, to get this out of the way now - 'I' and 'you' are used here as the collective.

"It's not fair that because I can't (or just choose not to) back a game in it's early development, I don't get the cape with a particular symbol on it."

I have also seen this in the reverse context: Free content for everyone, but you don't make it in game that week for the one-time (or annual even) event. There was actually plenty of this in CoH for example. Although most of the costume pieces were made available after their cash shop opened in the last year... those original badges were still never obtainable unless you were present at the time.

None of this is personal, but people make it personal. None of it is unfortunate, people make it 'unfortunate'. People work hard to achieve a reward, but for some reason, it's not ok for them to have that reward because not everyone can have it. Or perhaps it is not ok for the team to offer it. However you wish to frame it.

By default, even though admittedly most studios do this today, it simply should not happen because you feel a certain way about it. Deluxe packages with a cool box, little statues, art books, custom content on launch day, etc. are simply unfair and unwarranted. Even though there are people that want that kind of content and want to pay for it - they should not be allowed to have it because you can't afford it / don't want it / whatever the case may be. How is that fair to everyone else?

It's okay that you feel that way. I will respectfully just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise I would not be allowed to have one of my favorite dragon figurines in my collection - one I got from a FFXIV pre-order - if there was a 'no-custom content' standard.

My personal opinion is that I think it is a great way for (especially small companies that have no pool of capital to draw from) companies to generate capital to be able to afford the technology they need to create the game people are looking forward to. Monthly server costs and tech, software tech, licensing, time (lots of time), the list goes on and on. They need the money and there is a reason that things like Kickstarter and private reward tier programs are so popular. Most people don't mind the people funding the game they want to play being rewarded a little. Regardless if it is temporary or permanent.

I mean no disrespect, but I feel that I need to express my concerns and feelings on the matter as well. In my opinion, I truly believe that this studio should most definitely use whatever reward tier system they choose to get the funds they need. I hope they don't sacrifice the potential gains from the many for the desire of the few.

Anyway, I am too long-winded as usual. Sorry about that. I hope I get to see you all in game!

I think badges or things of that nature are totally fine you shouldn't be able to get the 5th year badge if you didn't join the game until the 7th year or didn't log in once in the (typically) month+ the event was running.

I do think for people with accounts there could be something that allows even posting on the forums to count toward acquisition of badges like that in case they're having computer issues or maybe if you have a paid account at that time you get the badge even if you weren't logged in.

Also any badges like that with special titles would be account wide unlocks applying to current and future characters

But timed exclusivity is really the way to go with most things and even then if it was free to get once either have yearly periods it can be acquired again for free or sell it year round in a cash shop 3+ months after initial availability.

Haplo wrote:
Here's the thing. This world is already unfair-
without the artificial unfairness added unto the already inescapable unfairness that simply is "life"

Life isn't fair. So don't make it any worse than it already is if there isn't any real need to.

We are talking about code here. Copy and paste. Drag and drop. Attach and send.
Not precious ores, or rare oils, or exotic fruits etc.

I get it. It's a marketing strategy. Yes, basically everyone does it.

It is not necessary however. There are other ways to incentivise.
Other ways to garner support that don't leave those who join later feeling bummed for not joining sooner.

Now, the actual physical items are another matter altogether. That's an ACTUAL limited resource.

Although, I see no reason why someone who is willing to pay for them and wait an appropriate amount of time
shouldn't have access to that as well.

If anything, they are LOSING opportunity to profit,
by denying those who would be willing to pay, WHENEVER they seek to purchase it.

There is no real need for exclusivity, and no worthwhile benefit, aside from the thrill some people (who in my opinion are less than respectable) feel having things that nobody else has or can ever get, and being able to lord it over their peers.

If anything, it creates a subtle toxicity within the community, breeding jealousy and regret and elitism, among other things.

I am not demanding anything. I am not in charge of anything.

I am merely creating a discussion because of what I feel, for many reasons, is an all around unappealing practice.
Should they choose to go the standard route, or rather, should they go through with what they already plan to do- I might not want to support this game.

I know I won't be going back to DCUO anytime soon, and so I am looking for an MMO that meets my (perhaps unreasonable?) standards.
In the end, at the rate things are going, I may simply have to settle.

I have searched for what feels like days, going through countless lists, and have only discovered two games that have been around for quite some time, and yet offered no exclusives.

One is a game I simply have no interest in,
the other is a work of art that my computer is not powerful enough to run.

Perhaps I should be focused on saving up my money for a new PC and a more powerful internet connection instead of looking for games to support...

Also, I didn't want to say anything, but the "Fairness Doctrine" has nothing to do with this,
so I don't know where that came from...that's an F.C.C related thing...

- but yes, it is about fairness. Not JUST fairness however.

Sweeney wrote: I'm sure I'm not the one you're thinking of, since I've never used that name anywhere to my recollection.

Powerhelm wrote:
Yes, I agree on this matter, except for a few points.

What if, rather than having a 5 year badge earned during the fifth anniversary of the game,
the 5 year badge be earned on the fifth anniversary of the player's continued support?

Also, yes, I proposed a similar idea on the DCUO forums regarding the items given out during the Anniversaries.
As it is now, every (January?) they give out free items, like base decorations or styles or trinkets, but if you miss out-
you're SOL.

I said "Well, what if every Anniversary the items from the previous Anniverary become available in the cash shop?"
but nobody seemed particularly fond of the idea.

On the DCUO forums, anyone who dares encroach the topic of exclusive items becomes an immediate pariah.

People I had previously thought were cool became vicious jerks,
and people I didn't even know began treating me cruely and derisively,
even the senior community manager Mepps.

I won't be going back to the game, until both Radarx and Mepps are fired or until I get a public apology from them...
but do pardon me, I've gotten off track...

blacke4dawn wrote:
Oh, then pardon me.

I have a friend on the DCUO forums
who goes by the name Black Dawn.

Her alias on twitch is also black_dawn1 or something like that,
and so knowing her naming sense I wondered whether you were her.

Pardon me.

Sweeney wrote:
The FCC "fairness doctrine" is about forcing radio stations to have equivalent content. Even though you may own your own radio station, you would not be allowed to choose what you broadcast. You want to have Democracy Now or Alan Colmes? That's fine, you better have an equal amount of Sean Hannity, etc. as well. It is about 'forced fairness' and equal content, regardless of what people have paid for. Which is what you are talking about. Regardless of it being just a discussion, that is the premise of the discussion.

That's why I'm saying if you feel that way it is fine, but you want to start saying that digital rights don't matter as much as physical rights, etc.

It's perfectly ok that a company can have unlimited items manufactured to meet demand. (There is no ACTUAL limited resource - that is a farce)
Yet, sorry - your digital content is just copy / paste. Way different than making a phone call for more stuff. That doesn't make sense.

Your argument is entirely flawed I'm sorry. I don't care that you feel the way you do. You're perfectly entitled to feel the way you do and I'm not trying to convert you. Nobody is saying you can't feel the way you do. I'm simply stating I don't agree with you.

I hope you stick around and enjoy the game. If you personal issues that won't allow you to be here... I don't think anyone, including myself, is saying you should compromise to do so.

I'll just leave the discussion be. I'm not here to cause you grief, just my voice to be heard alongside yours. That's all.

Later

Badges earned on 5th year of support are for continued support of the game over time. Event badges that are used to celebrate your presence or support of the game during a special time (Like game anniversary) would be different in my eyes.

5 Years of Support Badge falls into the Veterans Reward. People should still have the right to have something special and unique for being a supporter at a certain time in the game's life. Anniversary and event badges would offer nothing rather than an acknowledgement that you were there versus all the other badges and such that you could get and receive perks from.

I think for Anniversary ITEMS they should be available every year but only for a limited time. Maybe if there are lockboxes (Star trek online, CO, etc grab bags you pay to unlock) they could be added to the drop pool for those. Eventually after a few years offer the ability to purchase them. But for most games even those are party poppers and such that have no affect on anything in the game for player performance. In star trek online they aren't even bound so you can sell them if you like.

Haplo wrote:
No offence, but that's nonsensical. Like, really, honestly, no offence just saying.

I very clearly said that I am not in charge of anything, nor am I demanding anything,
this is simply a request from a would be player
that I am wanting to be considered seriously and carefully,
as to me it means a lot.

I did not state that I wanted to enforce legislature that would REQUIRE/FORCE/DISALLOW anyone from offering exclusive items,
only that I personally (and some others) would be appreciative if they found a way BY CHOICE (capitalization for emphasis)
to reward those who support the game early on without giving them exclusive items, because I strongly feel
it creates a lot of unnecessary toxicity and regret.

Not to mention, I guarantee you if this game takes off, YEARS later people will still be asking for the items given to founders.
This is simple truth. It always happens. It's always a mess.

The fairness doctrine STILL is not even remotely relevant to this discussion,
even loosely. Not important though, I get what you're trying to say,
but it seems you're laboring under a misimpression.

"Forced fairness" which is evidently how you are perceiving this, is not what I am promoting, and I have given you no reason to believe so.

I can't FORCE anyone to do anything, even if I wanted to.

Powerhelm wrote:
Okay. Acknowledged. You're in favor of SOME exclusive things being given out only once and then never again, namely badges?

I personally disagree however, and it is my hope that I can dissuade the people in charge from offering such items or titles or badges etc.

Yes, I am aware my chances of successfully dissuading them are pretty much nonexistent, but I felt it would be prudent to try anyway.

Everything else though, I am completely in agreement and I think those are great ideas.

Lockboxes can be a little too "RNG" for my tastes and if players buy keys for a bunch of them and don't get the item they were hoping for they will often feel cheated.

I'd just have measures in place to ensure that those who are...let's just say "unfavored" by Lady Luck
don't leave with a bad taste in their mouth. Buyer's remorse is bad for business.

Sweeney wrote: You don't get what you're saying even to yourself:
Sweeney wrote:
You are indeed promoting 'forced fairness' - by proxy. It's not a perception, it's a fact. You are asking (regardless of how politely you are doing it) a company to change their policy so that what you think is fair and just will take priority over and replace whatever was already in place. Because *you (and some others)* don't like it. Therefore, you are asking someone else to enact and enforce a particular policy *for you* regardless of other's feelings.

No matter how deferential or 'in earnest' you are portraying the request, the fact remains that by asking in the public forum you are by default attempting to influence a concept to your preference over others. Nothing wrong with doing it, but you can't disassociate yourself from the truth either.

By all means, plead your case to your hearts content. Maybe you will win some support somewhere. Just don't proclaim your case is something other than what it is.

It is no different than if I would say hey, I want a custom power set for $150 donation. I think anyone who donates at least $150 should get a custom power set that nobody else can ever have. That would be me requesting them to enact and enforce a particular policy *for me*. Which if they enacted would then be forced upon everyone.

So yes, everything we've discussed is very much related to the conversation. I guess I am so invested in this conversation because I was like you about 25 years ago. Probably a bit more extreme about things though. Kudos for your congeniality.

Best of luck with your mission. I honestly hope that for your own sake, you do not succeed.
Take Care