what is fun for you is not fun for all. Hopefully the devs wont follow the "force the players to learn to play" school of thought. It might work in mario brothers but all mmos do not force their players into this school of thought. Some bosses might use this mechanic but not all should. COH did perfectly well for years without doing this.

ivanhedgehog wrote:
All games have a learn to play aspect. City of Heroes did as well. City of Heroes also had those AoE circles in some content you so abhor.

Why did you feel the need to open a new thread on this. They've made their stance on movement very clear and are designing the gameplay around it.

I agree that superhero games should have an element of mobility in them, but this is not (and shouldn't be) a twitch game. It's an RPG, and they're designing everything in the game around it being an RPG. My invulnerable character doesn't dodge bullets, he takes them to the chest.

some bosses did. Not all. This game doesnt need to be a bouncing bunny knock off. COH let people play in many different ways. It didnt require a trinity and pvp didnt trump pve with regard to powers. random bad spots on the ground should be a mechanic that occasional bosses use, not a holy writ required of all enemies.

alltrueist wrote:
This thread is a lot older than the other one, someone just necroed it.

And not every character takes bullets to the chest. Some are like the Flash or Quicksilver and dodge it.

I'm not asking for a twitch game I'm asking they do what successful MMOs already do to become fun and successful.

Nobody is asking for a trinity. That doesn't fit in a superhero game. What DOES fit is movement and action.

Firstly even CoX moving was important for ranged characters and people who weren't depending on the holy trinity. In fact positioning smart was a constant thing in CoX in both pve and pvp in doing well. Likewise some of the content coming up required it and a good amount of incarnate content depended the player pay attention and move. This was all while there was rooting during fighting and whatnot. Standing still all the time was a death sentence on near every incarnate trial after the underground in fact.

The thing was they were telegraphed firstly and you didn't need to be twitchy to avoid them, just needed to pay attention and not get scrapper locked like many bad blasters/scrappers/aura rockers.

And even outside of that content, if you were fighting the harder mobs which required some thought, such as say malta operatives or knives of artemis and you were not paying attention to your positioning there was a good chance you'd be creamed by them. Malta required you to quickly destroy sappers and enemies with CC, knives of artemis could immobilize melee very easily and were difficult to face in the open with melee who forgot to consider teleport or bring any friends with range. These all required a minimum amount of movement. Anyone like me who used knockback had to pay constant endless time to positioning or face scattering mobs and ruining it for everyone.

The thing was movement in CoH was 'very' fast, faster than CO even(I mean super speed was near 100mph, and actually likely faster then the fastest vehicles in CO). And it had cones, knockback, and buffs/debuffs which paid attention to position. Ignoring position agaisnt most 40-50 mob groups except council and freaks was dangerous for most archtypes if not a death sentence. Only tankers and maybe scrappers could ignore it and even then they had to be careful of things like malta sappers or being to close to a large pack of carnies when they go down.

Not to mention, any ranged player was a fool to melee with an AV who had pbaoes that were close. CoH wasn't a trinity game though inspite an importance of movement, it was a non trinity game cause of how movement and positioning could effect the outcome of things for many powers. A lot of players forget that, they only remember easy council fights and freakshow battles and farm content on a fire/kin controller who never fought bosses.

Another thing was there was a lot to learn in CoH, to, about what the powers actually DID and how they WORKED. I remember when someone decided to post a shameless ripoff of the hackers manifesto in the form of the "Defenders Manifesto" specifically targetting the players who spent 90% of there time complaining how defenders played and insisting on banning things so they didn't have to move much, specifically knockback. Even though gale was probably one of the most powerful utility powers in CoH, far out-classing o2 boost. What did it require to work well? Quick movement and positioning! Fly over the enemy, or to the side if there is a wall or corner next to em, and shove em into it.

I'll say this it doesn't need to be discussed as much as you'd think, because I do know from the live streams the devs are from what I can tell, leaning towards challenging rather than easy gameplay. That is you'll lose but you'll learn and know why your losing. If however your among those who was a perma-debter I won't be surprised if you have the same problem in VO if they achieve that. I remember many blasters and scrappers who never got the hint in CoH and died all the time :/. A lot of it was "Brick foot" syndrome.

And again I hate saying it but if you spent most of your time fighting council and freaks you could get away with brick foot but forget that the other mobs *gasp* required a good amount of movement and smart positioning :/. And a lot of powersets to. I mean, again, knockback lover here.

ZeeHero wrote:
you should have let my stone tank know that! To think he was doing it wrong all the time!

What I liked about CoX was that I didn't necessarily need to be moving around like a monkey for every single fight and I had a more relaxed feel. However I did enjoy the incarnate fights in which case you would need to move around to avoid powerful boss attacks but it was NOT part of normal game play.

" or they could make being flagged for pvp enable travel supression. If you are flagged and attack someone your travel powers are shut off or degraded. That way pve isnt crippled by pvp problems and pvper can have fun." NO NO PLEASE NO that is one of the shiity things castle did in i13 of cox that utterly helped kill the pvp scene, it didn't make it better it helped kill it.

Yes a Blaster with fly could just hover over some melee with super speed and blast the shit out of them ( if they stood there like an idiot ) but most people knew that they should have two travel powers to compensate for such situations such as SJ/SS Fly/teleport.

Keep pvp and pve separate like in cox which had arenas and zones that didn't involve the pve community

Moving is pretty important sometimes on Marvel Heroes. I mean its like Diablo so pretty different from CoX and what VO will be, but I liked the idea of needing to get out of the way when Juggernaut was coming at you. And in one of the "raids," for lack of a better term, you have to hide behind a rock during a certain attack or else you die.
It also didn't feel bouncy though. You chose your position based on your powers and just moved when it was necessary.
This wasn't a mechanic used with all enemies, especially not the minion types, but added a little something to larger, seemingly more important battles.

Removing travel powers in pvp would be like PVP 2.0 in CoX- terrible and un fun. Moving around, flying at each other, punching each other, avoiding each other, is what makes PVP fun and super hero like.

At most there should be a power every character has which can temporarily disable travel powers, with a lockout period. Champions Online does this well.

Everone's idea on just what this means is different, but my first instinct reaction is no friggin' way. At least, nothing too far astray from the CoH-style of movement requirements which quite frankly, were all over the map as far as challenge level depending on the foe.

I absolutely do not want to be required to spend half (or more) of my time dancing, rolling, and dodging out of the way of goofy damned 'impending damage area' indicators.

I do not want to choose 3 or 4 powers out of my numerous arsenol and twitch attack between them. I want to learn to utilize most or all of them to their best advantage during a fight, calculate a fight before heading in, and do my best to make it through with my team mates or solo. Which usually requires plenty of moving around as it is.

What one person likes is not for everyone else to deal with. I don't want to be forced to make all my toons by the numbers to survive and just play, etc. Some people take gaming very seriously, a lot of us just want to play for complete zoning out and having fun with our friends - relaxed. May sound horrifying to some, but it is not to a lot of people who have been sorely missing the 'old CoX system types'.

Just my opinion.

Nobody is asking that you only use 3 or 4 attacks. All that's being asked for is the game be made interesting and not a snorefest. At the very least, boss enemies should make you dance.

I'm a casual player just like you. But even casuals require some level of interesting and fun in their gameplay. Even casuals want to feel like super heroes in combat and not like they have brick feet.

ZeeHero wrote:
My stone tank didnt dance and was a lot of fun to play. If you want to dance around like a demented jack rabbit, feel free. Twitch games are a dime a dozen. City of heroes had a fine combat system, It wasnt designed to force you into mandatory avoidance maneuvers. some bosses did throw out cones and other mechanics to force you to move, There were mobs that had to be taken out in a certain order. This kind of thing kept the game fun, not mandatory dance steps in every fight.

ivanhedgehog wrote:
you bring up the "stone tank" a lot. i would think even in a situation like proposed, tanks would be a bit more immune to it. in most games with action combat the tanks can still suck up the hits to an extent. (except against things like bosses)

this doesnt need to be a black and white situations. a hit that dpsers need to dodge doesnt have to be terribly threatening to a brick char.

ivanhedgehog wrote:
She isn't asking for twitch gameplay either, just that moving would be important. You try to make it sound like she wants nothing but hardcore shooters when thats not quite the case. Challenging gameplay always has some amount of movement in various fights. It doesn't have to be 'every' fight but a modest amount. You need things to change things up once in a while. Even fighting the same group one shouldn't always be doing the exact same thing ever single time. I mean malta if you were a tanker or brute you'd be pounding the sappers first every time. If you fought malta for a while it'd get old as there wasn't any variation beyond that for melee archtypes.

Movement is a part of keeping individual fights dynamic. Heck part of the reason shooters are popular is not because they are twitchy but because the good ones allow for engagements to be different every time. The same can be said for RTS's and the same appeal applies to good multiplayer pvp. If every encounter is the same and every team is the same whats the point of playing if everything is gonna be the same over and over? Movement being a factor in combat helps with that.

Taking movement out of fighting entirely would make fights feel more stagnant :/. Even if you don't have to have the trinity and get the CoH style support veterans like a lack of movement being useful and important would contribute to stagnation still. Again not every single enemy or group would have to force it but letting a player just spam his powers or use his powers according to his plan every single time would mean you'd end up with something like this:

Player engages mob and stands still, activates crowd control power 1, then AoE power 1 2 and 3, then ST power 1, 2, 3 in that order and finishes mob off.
Player engages mob and stands still, activates crowd control power 1, then AoE power 1 2 and 3, then ST power 1, 2, 3 in that order and finishes mob off.
Player engages mob and stands still, activates crowd control power 1, then AoE power 1 2 and 3, then ST power 1, 2, 3 in that order and finishes mob off.
Player engages mob and stands still, activates crowd control power 1, then AoE power 1 2 and 3, then ST power 1, 2, 3 in that order and finishes mob off.

If it's a team, it's:

Tank engages mob, healer spams heals as tank uses the most optimum agro grabbing skill/spell/power combinations, damage dealers launch attacks in a very specific attack chain. No one moves till they are all dropped.
Tank engages mob, healer spams heals as tank uses the most optimum agro grabbing skill/spell/power combinations, damage dealers launch attacks in a very specific attack chain. No one moves till they are all dropped.
Tank engages mob, healer spams heals as tank uses the most optimum agro grabbing skill/spell/power combinations, damage dealers launch attacks in a very specific attack chain. No one moves till they are all dropped.
Tank engages mob, healer spams heals as tank uses the most optimum agro grabbing skill/spell/power combinations, damage dealers launch attacks in a very specific attack chain. No one moves till they are all dropped.


Notice how I just copy pasted that. What do you see? Repetition. What are mmorpgs notoriously unpopular for? Repetitiveness. Thats why so many are dropping the trinity, thats why others are also trying to make movement important.

I know some players never want to think or have to move and just feel awesome right away but where is the reward in that? I'm saying that as a more balanced person who plays anything out there, from slower paced turn based games and to games requiring reflexes. But really, do we need to be like CO where there is zero thought involved for a giant majority of the game other then what powers you picked?

I also really do not get how people can think that any movement required in gameplay means it's a twitch fest. I really don't, I didn't ever rely on reflexes to win in most shooters I relied on smart tactics. Often anytime something hit me it was due to a dodging mistake or simply not seeing it, rather than because I was not reacting. It feels like no one wants to be making decisions in a fight. Heck, Doom was made for people who didn't have the reflexes of a 10 year old. Yes, the grandfather of first person shooters as they exist that really made them popular. Didn't require reflexes to be that sharp. My dad played the games well into his 60s(yes, that old, though he wasn't as into them as he used to be) and still made it through them.

I'm sorry if that comes off as aggressive but really, dazee isn't asking for twitch gameplay just movement during fights to be important so things can be mixed up. It'd help avoid the repetitive predictable and inevitably boring gameplay :/.

And also, yes practice would be important, but I'd rather actual practice rather than just memorizing attack chains be important to a degree know? I'm not asking for hardcore SHFG-can-only-enjoy punishing gameplay but challenging gameplay. I'm not asking for memorization based gameplay but challenging gameplay. And it's also why I prefered CoH over CO: It was far more challenging. And could it afford to have movement be important yeah, and CoH's devs even began adding content making it such, if they felt it could afford it I'm sure VO can to.

sersi wrote:
you evidently never played COH. a stone tank in granite couldnt dance. A blanket requirement of mandatory moving around is just as unfun as the opposite. let different enemy groups have different requirements. You didnt fight carnies the same as you fought council or KOA. dont homogenize every mob group to require mandatory movement.

I think where the entire argument is getting lost here is what was the intent of the original post. The thread name implies that games similar to this one don't have enough movement, or that one would hope for this game to please have a requirement of a 'lot of movement' - implying more than average.

Nobody is accusing anyone of anything. Most of us here enjoy combat systems that are at least similar to what CoX was. Which in my opinion and many others had plenty of movement built into it as it was. It especially depended on the type of character you created. Scrappers jump into my mind for being extreme damage dealers and 'mini-tanks' that had to move like nobody's business. A good one could absolutely lead a team in lieu of a tank.

Especially in early stages... ranged characters were basically various forms of glass cannons, and if you wanted to live, you learned to kite like a sonofabitch. Backpedal Bennies were a staple am I right?

Basically, I think we all enjoy a fast paced - or in my opinion even better - a massive league type invasion or task force event where we are all moving and shaking, using every ability we have.. constantly waylaying the enemy, dying, resurrecting, wiping, trying to get back before our peers wipe because we're gone, etc.

As I said - I think the issue in this thread is that the thread title and some of the comments made, lead people to believe there is a desire for a more dodge-based gameplay akin to Wildstar or whatever 'other' gameplay style, which I would absolutely just pull out of right now on the spot.

There's no reason to bicker or be a jerk about who knows what about what kind of gameplay or what have you. The point is - there is a reason that most of us are here and paid to support this game. Have a desire for the gameplay to be a certain way, and wish for it to be so.

Also, if you ever played CoX, then the repetitiveness comment is pure bologna. Otherwise it is ignorance. You can certainly use similar approaches, but if you were to stand still and just start casting chains? You'd be dead.

The argument that 'Trinity' games are dying off because of repetition is only true because of the repetition of content and replayability. Otherwise you would have FPS shooters dying off all over the place because they are all the exact same formula. Movement is not the problem. Powers aren't even the problem. Content, playability, and replayability, are the problem. The formula - that's the problem.

I am also looking forward to the 'Trinity' dying off personally. Go back to the original 5, or like Valiance - many more than that. The ability to create such a specialized character that it fits in with a specific group for event specific purposes. This sounds like a great idea to me.

We're all speaking in preferences anyway, so that's all there is to it. May we all end up with the best parts of the game we want. That's allw e can hope for. I for one hope that the 'movement' is similar to what was in CoX, which was relatively unique in that regard.

ivanhedgehog wrote:
The opposite being unfun then why are you saying she wants a twitch fest? Movement being important doesn't mean twitch fest. I mean yeah I know, stone armor slowed movement to a crawl with it's top tier power, but even then there was buffs to circumvent that or teleport(which many stone tankers used). They did that so they could remain a bit mobile.

Haplo wrote:
Well firstly shooters hadn't been dying off because while it may seem repetitive it's not predictable gameplay. Especially multiplayer against other players, you don't know what the player will do necessarily. Some players are very unpredictable, and can test even people with extremely sharp reflexes and reaction times while possessing less. It's the nature of the game with them. Heck even some single-player campaigns can be unpredictable, FEAR for example the AI is very unpredictable as it aggressively seeks out cover somewhat randomly based on where the player is.

The real reason the trinity gets blame is predictability. If I can tell how an encounter will end well ahead of time it's predictable. Granted, even CoH could have this problem sometimes, heck super teams could have it severely due to how easy they were to survive in(max defenses on everyone + very high damage and accuracy from leadership powers and buffs pretty much meant the team were gods and the content was trivialized). Often people wanting a challenge would have to up the difficulty.

It's how predictable the gameplay is as to whether or not it really felt repetitive. Trinity gameplay scores a good 7-9 out of ten on that; with any unpredictable moments leading to a team wipe. Which also hurts it: Unpredictability or something not going to plan shouldn't necessarily mean a defeat know? But thats kinda a different topic.

Unpredictability kind of covers up repetitiveness, but it does so in a good way.

...i did play COX. im not sure what that has to do with anything since we aren't talking about CoX

also i was specifically saying AGAINST the blanket statement. that was the whole point. that tanks can take hits that dpsers would need to dodge.